Comments for Mansfield Park http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com A Commentary on the Novel Sun, 25 Oct 2009 15:01:36 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 Comment on Introduction by | Um blogue dedicado a Mansfield Park | Jane Austen em português http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/introduction/#comment-122 | Um blogue dedicado a Mansfield Park | Jane Austen em português Sun, 25 Oct 2009 15:01:36 +0000 http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/?page_id=6#comment-122 [...] ver que Chris gosta muito de Fanny por este pequeno trecho de seu post de introdução: The general critical reaction to Fanny Price I confess to find bewildering. Only thoroughly vulgar [...] [...] ver que Chris gosta muito de Fanny por este pequeno trecho de seu post de introdução: The general critical reaction to Fanny Price I confess to find bewildering. Only thoroughly vulgar [...]

]]> Comment on Was Fanny’s Love Realistic? (Ch. 24) by Evelyn P Byrd http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/was-fannys-love-realistic-ch-24/#comment-119 Evelyn P Byrd Thu, 08 Oct 2009 02:18:16 +0000 http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/?p=15#comment-119 Well! Yes, Fanny had high standards, but at what cost? In Portsmouth, she is struggling with those high standards, especially when she looks poverty straight in the eye. Of course, her mother, Mrs Price, nee Frances Ward, made sure Fanny knew what poverty meant. She reminded her daughter, that she had chosen to marry for love. With total disregard for money! AND, yes, Fanny's mother did love Mr. Price with all his shortcomings. And we must remember Jane, who realized that we all have shortcomings-are not perfect and that high standards do not always hold water-when love comes calling. Money is necessary, absolutely-quite indispensible! Poverty will eventually kill love, drag it down into murky waters. I can understand when Fanny does not hear from Mansfield Park, that maybe they had forgot her and YES, Henry's proposals look helpful. I do think that in time Fanny would have said YES(and meant it). And Henry would have loved her forever and only her! Well! Yes, Fanny had high standards, but at what cost? In Portsmouth, she is struggling with those high standards, especially when she looks poverty straight in the eye. Of course, her mother, Mrs Price, nee Frances Ward, made sure Fanny knew what poverty meant. She reminded her daughter, that she had chosen to marry for love. With total disregard for money! AND, yes, Fanny’s mother did love Mr. Price with all his shortcomings. And we must remember Jane, who realized that we all have shortcomings-are not perfect and that high standards do not always hold water-when love comes calling. Money is necessary, absolutely-quite indispensible! Poverty will eventually kill love, drag it down into murky waters. I can understand when Fanny does not hear from Mansfield Park, that maybe they had forgot her and YES, Henry’s proposals look helpful. I do think that in time Fanny would have said YES(and meant it). And Henry would have loved her forever and only her!

]]> Comment on Introduction by iris wigle-cutforth http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/introduction/#comment-75 iris wigle-cutforth Mon, 26 Jan 2009 01:42:11 +0000 http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/?page_id=6#comment-75 Hold on!?! Fanny Price has some good qualities. I mean she cared about the blacks on the ship right? Just because all the blanks were not filled in for the reading audience doesn't mean that she was a complete moron. It is sad that there wasn't a second follow up of Mansfield Park. Even the name of the book gave the reader a hint. Women lived in a Man's Field Park but it was not all paradise. Truth be told, The Wigle family clan known around a town in Canada called Kingsville had been funded during the civil war by patrons from the UK. We may never know their true identities. The Wigle clan left Europe from Germany and arrived in the USA mid 1700's. They were known as the Pennsylvania Dutch only because the earliest USA officials had asked the group where they had come from and what languages they could speak and the reply was, "Dortch", which the officials thought was "Dutch". Thus, the history books called them The Pennsylavnia Dutch. The clan may not have even been German. El sometimes may or may not be a Jewish thing. The clan travelled with Germans as described by the historical novel, "The Trail of the Black Walnut" which took the clan from the USA to Canada under The Loyalist laws. Queen Victoria and other Royals had declared openly their hostility to the USA and other countries abducting blacks from Africa and turning them into slaves. Queen Victoria, as penned down by Buckingham Palace officals told USA officials that the Bible's law decreed that every slave was to be set free during what is called The Jubilee. The Jubilee is marked every fifty years but even if a slave was bought only a day or a month before the Bible, as set down by Jehovah God of Armies, was to be "set free". The Royals and supporters waited. In the meantime, historians told a truth, blacks had supporters in Canada. Monies were sent to clans like the Wigles to buy up contracts and help the blacks back to Africa or to any destination that they may have desired to travel. A small group of blacks stayed on the Wigle farm as pointed out by local historians as squatters working on local farms and these eventually moved towards the Essex, Ontario, region. The monies for this movement came from someone??? Dah! Why did Fanny not want to marry the modern day Robert Kennedy, Mr. Crawford, besides his roving eye? Because the pulpit was the seat of power and that was not what Mr. Crawford could give Fanny. She had, as shown affection for her cousin, but the audience doesn't buy that affection solidly. She is closer to Mr. Crawford's sister than anyone which may suggest that the two of them may have been eager for a reason to distant themselves from each other for the sake of secrecy but not as closet lovers. Mary Crawford was going to teach Fanny, how to manipulate certain "equations". The black slavery issue was an important part of the story even if for the most part it was kept in the background. Fanny could understand the issue of slavery for she herself was partner to the same form of molding. No one asked Fanny if she wanted to be a maid. She didn't fit in with high society nor with her poor family. Women had no rights. They did as they were told except for Mary Crawford who seemed to bend the rules to her own advantage. Manipulating is serious business. No...I don't think Fanny and Mary Crawford separated completely. Someone had to bring monies by boat...but that is just speculation. Hold on!?! Fanny Price has some good qualities. I mean she cared about the blacks on the ship right? Just because all the blanks were not filled in for the reading audience doesn’t mean that she was a complete moron. It is sad that there wasn’t a second follow up of Mansfield Park. Even the name of the book gave the reader a hint. Women lived in a Man’s Field Park but it was not all paradise. Truth be told, The Wigle family clan known around a town in Canada called Kingsville had been funded during the civil war by patrons from the UK. We may never know their true identities. The Wigle clan left Europe from Germany and arrived in the USA mid 1700’s. They were known as the Pennsylvania Dutch only because the earliest USA officials had asked the group where they had come from and what languages they could speak and the reply was, “Dortch”, which the officials thought was “Dutch”. Thus, the history books called them The Pennsylavnia Dutch. The clan may not have even been German. El sometimes may or may not be a Jewish thing. The clan travelled with Germans as described by the historical novel, “The Trail of the Black Walnut” which took the clan from the USA to Canada under The Loyalist laws. Queen Victoria and other Royals had declared openly their hostility to the USA and other countries abducting blacks from Africa and turning them into slaves. Queen Victoria, as penned down by Buckingham Palace officals told USA officials that the Bible’s law decreed that every slave was to be set free during what is called The Jubilee. The Jubilee is marked every fifty years but even if a slave was bought only a day or a month before the Bible, as set down by Jehovah God of Armies, was to be “set free”. The Royals and supporters waited. In the meantime, historians told a truth, blacks had supporters in Canada. Monies were sent to clans like the Wigles to buy up contracts and help the blacks back to Africa or to any destination that they may have desired to travel. A small group of blacks stayed on the Wigle farm as pointed out by local historians as squatters working on local farms and these eventually moved towards the Essex, Ontario, region. The monies for this movement came from someone??? Dah!
Why did Fanny not want to marry the modern day Robert Kennedy, Mr. Crawford, besides his roving eye? Because the pulpit was the seat of power and that was not what Mr. Crawford could give Fanny. She had, as shown affection for her cousin, but the audience doesn’t buy that affection solidly. She is closer to Mr. Crawford’s sister than anyone which may suggest that the two of them may have been eager for a reason to distant themselves from each other for the sake of secrecy but not as closet lovers. Mary Crawford was going to teach Fanny, how to manipulate certain “equations”. The black slavery issue was an important part of the story even if for the most part it was kept in the background. Fanny could understand the issue of slavery for she herself was partner to the same form of molding. No one asked Fanny if she wanted to be a maid. She didn’t fit in with high society nor with her poor family. Women had no rights. They did as they were told except for Mary Crawford who seemed to bend the rules to her own advantage. Manipulating is serious business. No…I don’t think Fanny and Mary Crawford separated completely. Someone had to bring monies by boat…but that is just speculation.

]]> Comment on Was Fanny’s Love Realistic? (Ch. 24) by Vic (Ms. Place) http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/was-fannys-love-realistic-ch-24/#comment-37 Vic (Ms. Place) Mon, 19 May 2008 12:05:28 +0000 http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/?p=15#comment-37 I see that I totally ignored the content of this post, and only responded to the comments. I think Fanny has a strong moral center that cannot be swayed by the external. Had she not fallen for Edmund, she still had her excellent brother as a role model. Regardless of how tempting Henry Crawford might have been in the absence of an Edmund, he would never have measured up to her high standards. Henry, who cannot help but eventually show his true character, never stood a chance. I see that I totally ignored the content of this post, and only responded to the comments. I think Fanny has a strong moral center that cannot be swayed by the external. Had she not fallen for Edmund, she still had her excellent brother as a role model. Regardless of how tempting Henry Crawford might have been in the absence of an Edmund, he would never have measured up to her high standards. Henry, who cannot help but eventually show his true character, never stood a chance.

]]> Comment on Was Fanny’s Love Realistic? (Ch. 24) by Vic (Ms. Place) http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/was-fannys-love-realistic-ch-24/#comment-36 Vic (Ms. Place) Mon, 19 May 2008 11:55:38 +0000 http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/?p=15#comment-36 Mmm, I am enjoying reading this discussion and am eager to jump in, however, I am late for work and will need to keep this short. I just want to say that after having read Persuasion again, it is glaring that the work remains unfinished. There are too many dangling threads, and Jane seldom allowed her plots to dangle. While I love Emma as a concept, I have a hard time with its passivity and talkiness. Miss Bates and Mr. Woodhouse especially get on my nerves, and sometimes I just want to toss the book and say 'enough already!' Mr. Knightley comes off as the prosiest and bossiest of the suitors (even moreso than Edmund). I have an aversion to people who poke into other's lives and manipulate them, so my reaction to Emma is a personal one. In order of preference, these are my JA choices: P&P, Persuasion, S&S, NA, Mansfield Park, and then Emma. NA is a delightful romp, and I am falling in love with Henry Tilney. Mansfield Park keeps getting better and better. When I was 17 I was exactly like Marianne Dashwood, a pain, but I had potential. So, reading S&S reminds me of my younger self. Aw, heck, give me JA over any author any day. Her books are filled with such depth that I cannot get enough of them. Mmm, I am enjoying reading this discussion and am eager to jump in, however, I am late for work and will need to keep this short.

I just want to say that after having read Persuasion again, it is glaring that the work remains unfinished. There are too many dangling threads, and Jane seldom allowed her plots to dangle. While I love Emma as a concept, I have a hard time with its passivity and talkiness. Miss Bates and Mr. Woodhouse especially get on my nerves, and sometimes I just want to toss the book and say ‘enough already!’ Mr. Knightley comes off as the prosiest and bossiest of the suitors (even moreso than Edmund). I have an aversion to people who poke into other’s lives and manipulate them, so my reaction to Emma is a personal one.

In order of preference, these are my JA choices: P&P, Persuasion, S&S, NA, Mansfield Park, and then Emma. NA is a delightful romp, and I am falling in love with Henry Tilney. Mansfield Park keeps getting better and better. When I was 17 I was exactly like Marianne Dashwood, a pain, but I had potential. So, reading S&S reminds me of my younger self.

Aw, heck, give me JA over any author any day. Her books are filled with such depth that I cannot get enough of them.

]]> Comment on Was Fanny’s Love Realistic? (Ch. 24) by Chris Dornan http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/was-fannys-love-realistic-ch-24/#comment-35 Chris Dornan Sun, 18 May 2008 20:39:29 +0000 http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/?p=15#comment-35 I am really curious to read that you like <i>Mansfield Park</i> the most--and not in a detached appreciation of technique but a real appreciation of the whole--yet you find <i>Sense and Sensibility</i> the least likable. I suppose it isn't really that surprising; in some ways S&S, like Emma (which is not your one of your favourites I notice), is the most tricky. It took me a good while to love Emma. My favourites are the just the novels she published herself--S&S, P&P, M.P. and Emma, with N.A. close. I refuse to elevate any one of the four and see them as an undivided whole with NA a primer. (I agree with Trilling that P was unfinished.) For me S&S is the true foundations on which they were all built. Of course it was much less developed as a novel than its successors but its construction was exquisite and I remain awed by its philosophical brilliance. I never had any difficulty identifying with the story--but that is the beauty of these novels--they all have complementary strengths that appeal to different people. I have no desire to try and shake people out of their preferences--though I do wish more people like <i>Mansfield Park</i> and more would understand <i>Sense and Sensibility</i>. I wonder to what extent you would agree with my <a href="http://peaceandwisdom.net/category/composite-feature-articles/jane-bennet-and-barack-obama/" rel="nofollow">interpretation of <i>Pride and Prejudice</i></a>. Given our convergence on <i>Mansfield Park</i> I think we might agree, but with the divergence on <i>Sense and Sensibility</i> I think we might disagree. So I am curious. I am really curious to read that you like Mansfield Park the most–and not in a detached appreciation of technique but a real appreciation of the whole–yet you find Sense and Sensibility the least likable. I suppose it isn’t really that surprising; in some ways S&S, like Emma (which is not your one of your favourites I notice), is the most tricky. It took me a good while to love Emma. My favourites are the just the novels she published herself–S&S, P&P, M.P. and Emma, with N.A. close.

I refuse to elevate any one of the four and see them as an undivided whole with NA a primer. (I agree with Trilling that P was unfinished.) For me S&S is the true foundations on which they were all built. Of course it was much less developed as a novel than its successors but its construction was exquisite and I remain awed by its philosophical brilliance. I never had any difficulty identifying with the story–but that is the beauty of these novels–they all have complementary strengths that appeal to different people. I have no desire to try and shake people out of their preferences–though I do wish more people like Mansfield Park and more would understand Sense and Sensibility.

I wonder to what extent you would agree with my interpretation of Pride and Prejudice. Given our convergence on Mansfield Park I think we might agree, but with the divergence on Sense and Sensibility I think we might disagree. So I am curious.

]]> Comment on What a Corrupted Mind (Chs. 23-4) by Chris Dornan http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/what-a-corrupted-mind/#comment-34 Chris Dornan Sun, 18 May 2008 20:15:46 +0000 http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/?p=14#comment-34 Indeed! The study of Henry's and Maria's selfish passion is absolutely brilliant. How can people say she didn't understand romantic love? Methinks the problem is she understood it only too well. Indeed! The study of Henry’s and Maria’s selfish passion is absolutely brilliant. How can people say she didn’t understand romantic love? Methinks the problem is she understood it only too well.

]]> Comment on Sir Thomas Attends to Business (Ch. 20) by Chris Dornan http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/2008/04/28/sir-thomas-attends-to-business-ch-20/#comment-33 Chris Dornan Sun, 18 May 2008 20:08:07 +0000 http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/?p=9#comment-33 Excellent--it is good to know that I have one other person with an enthusiasm for Mansfield Park! Excellent–it is good to know that I have one other person with an enthusiasm for Mansfield Park!

]]> Comment on Sir Thomas Attends to Business (Ch. 20) by Rosie http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/2008/04/28/sir-thomas-attends-to-business-ch-20/#comment-32 Rosie Sat, 17 May 2008 19:57:13 +0000 http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/?p=9#comment-32 Your assessment is hitting the nail on its proverbial head with me. ) Your assessment is hitting the nail on its proverbial head with me. )

]]> Comment on What a Corrupted Mind (Chs. 23-4) by Rosie http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/what-a-corrupted-mind/#comment-31 Rosie Sat, 17 May 2008 19:37:37 +0000 http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/?p=14#comment-31 "Yes, Mary, my Fanny will feel a difference indeed: a daily, hourly difference, in the behaviour of every being who approaches her; and it will be the completion of my happiness to know that I am the doer of it, that I am the person to give the consequence so justly her due. Now she is dependent, helpless, friendless, neglected, forgotten.” “Nay, Henry, not by all; not forgotten by all; not friendless or forgotten. Her cousin Edmund never forgets her.” “Edmund! True, I believe he is, generally speaking, kind to her, and so is Sir Thomas in his way; but it is the way of a rich, superior, long-worded, arbitrary uncle. What can Sir Thomas and Edmund together do, what do they do for her happiness, comfort, honour, and dignity in the world, to what I shall do?” Ah yes. I remember bristling when I read this speech. What self conceit thought I. Even in the heat of his passion for Fanny it's still all about him. “Yes, Mary, my Fanny will feel a difference indeed: a daily, hourly difference, in the behaviour of every being who approaches her; and it will be the completion of my happiness to know that I am the doer of it, that I am the person to give the consequence so justly her due. Now she is dependent, helpless, friendless, neglected, forgotten.”

“Nay, Henry, not by all; not forgotten by all; not friendless or forgotten. Her cousin Edmund never forgets her.”

“Edmund! True, I believe he is, generally speaking, kind to her, and so is Sir Thomas in his way; but it is the way of a rich, superior, long-worded, arbitrary uncle. What can Sir Thomas and Edmund together do, what do they do for her happiness, comfort, honour, and dignity in the world, to what I shall do?”

Ah yes. I remember bristling when I read this speech. What self conceit thought I. Even in the heat of his passion for Fanny it’s still all about him.

]]> Comment on Was Fanny’s Love Realistic? (Ch. 24) by Rosie http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/was-fannys-love-realistic-ch-24/#comment-30 Rosie Sat, 17 May 2008 19:20:54 +0000 http://mansfieldpark.wordpress.com/?p=15#comment-30 I agree with you 1000%. Mansfield Park is the first of Austen's Work that I ever read. I bought it off a Logos boat when it docked in my island. Multiple readings have allowed me to analyze the characters and their motives more thoroughly. Both Crawford and Mary had the chance to be better people through the influence of Edmund and Fanny but they both lost out on love because they were habitually selfish vain and proud. Mary more so than Henry imho because Henry at least tried to change for the sake of love. Mary did not and insisted on seeing herself as the injured party. 'If he really loved me, he would choose a better profession - because I deserve so much more than to be the wife of a mere clergyman' I love all of Austen's work except Sense & Sensibility. Mansfield Park, Pride & Prejudice and Northanger Abby are my favourites, in that order. Going to read the rest of your posts now. I am enjoying your analyses a great deal. ;') I agree with you 1000%. Mansfield Park is the first of Austen’s Work that I ever read. I bought it off a Logos boat when it docked in my island. Multiple readings have allowed me to analyze the characters and their motives more thoroughly. Both Crawford and Mary had the chance to be better people through the influence of Edmund and Fanny but they both lost out on love because they were habitually selfish vain and proud. Mary more so than Henry imho because Henry at least tried to change for the sake of love. Mary did not and insisted on seeing herself as the injured party. ‘If he really loved me, he would choose a better profession – because I deserve so much more than to be the wife of a mere clergyman’

I love all of Austen’s work except Sense & Sensibility. Mansfield Park, Pride & Prejudice and Northanger Abby are my favourites, in that order. Going to read the rest of your posts now. I am enjoying your analyses a great deal. ;’)

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